TCC Podcast 17: Copywriting and Analytics with Momoko Price

Copywriter and analytics expert, Momoko Price, joins Rob and Kira for this 17th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about how she has created a unique niche business that combines copywriting with analytics, how she helps clients understand the importance of analytics, the course she created for ConversionXL and much more. Data geeks won’t want to miss this episode—neither will any writer who works with clients that need more conversions.

Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Sponsor: AirStory

Joanna Wiebe
Conversion Optimization FB Group
Peep and ConversionXL
Momo’s Facebook page
Kantan.io (Momo’s website)
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
Intro: Content (for now)
Outro: Gravity

Full Transcript:

Kira: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at airstory.co/club.

Rob: What if you could hang out with really talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I try to do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast.

Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 17, as we chat with conversion copywriter and analytics expert Momoko Price about conversion optimization, the role analytics plays in her process, running a live copywriting course and how she’s attracted high-caliber clients like Intuit, Scotiabank, and AT&T. Hey Rob. Hey Momo!

Rob: Kira. Momo.

Momo: Hi.

Kira: How’s it going? Thanks for being here, Momo. I think a good place to start with you, is kind of the story before this story. How did you end up as a conversion copywriter?

Momo: Oh my god. Well, I started out … okay, so I originally started out in Science. Can you hear me still?

Rob: Yes.

Momo: I started out in Science. I specialized in Evolutionary Biology. Went to grad school for that. Realized that, despite liking science and all that stuff, that lab work was not my lifestyle. I did not want to do that.

And then I had always straddled between Science and also doing Journalism and Writing. It was kind of like a dual strength. So, I hopped over into Journalism right around the time of the financial crisis, and I worked as a copy editor for one of the larger newspapers in Canada, and did some freelance writing and stuff like that. And then as I started to do that … I was living in Toronto and there’s a pretty healthy tech scene there.

One of the things that really frustrated me when I was working in the news room, at a newspaper, was just you can kind of feel the luddite-ism in the newsroom. It was just the sheer feeling of apprehension when dealing with the internet and technology, and everything that was happening with publishing. I was like this is not where I want to be in my … I don’t think it’s a good idea to be heading down, despite how much I like writing, I don’t necessarily see this being the best place to be. Like I want to actually be in a field of work that embraces technological innovation, as opposed to running screaming from it.

Rob: Yeah.

Momo: So then I can’t even remember how it happened but I met some people who were working at a couple of start-ups in Toronto, and then there was a guy who was founding one. He was like “I like the cut of your jib. I’m going to hire you.” I worked for him, and then the more I did that, I just started hanging out with more people in tech and eventually, that went from writing for tech and doing some freelance work and then I … I can’t even remember how I started getting into conversion copywriting. Probably because I stumbled across Joanna Wiebe’s stuff and then when I started realizing that oh, there’s this whole world of writing, communication but also leveraging analytics and data to be able to try to generate hypotheses. It all just came together. I was like “Oh my god. Scientific process plus data plus internet plus writing.” I was like “This is … this works for me. This checks off all of my things I like without me having to work in a lab or like any of the stuff that I don’t like.”

So that’s the long-winding road to carving out a niche, and a job that I feel like most of the time when people ask me what I do, I don’t even know what to say. All the time, it happens all the time. Especially when I’m at the gym or whatever, people will be like “Oh what do you do?” And someone will be like “I’m a lawyer” or like “I renovate houses” or whatever. I’m like “I technically write copy but also look at data and run tests and” It’s just …

Rob: It’s kind of an odd specialization that works for you though.

Momo: Yeah, I think so. But, I feel like I’m struggling with it now because there is such a …. and I think you guys would probably agree. There is a big chasm between doing the analytics and actually executing the tests and understanding how to manage all of the things that can go wrong, and having that control over the deployment and execution of the tests. And generating the creative and also gathering the research. Often which to generate the creative. Those are three separate areas and they’re all, even with themselves, they can be jobs.

Rob: Yeah.

Momo: They are their own jobs. There’s the analytics guy and then they’re the analytics, and maybe test guy. Sometimes the analytics people… they’re not really all that well-versed in running the tests. And then there’s the creative person who’s the designer, the copywriter, whatever.

Then there’s the marketing guy or the research guy or girl, ya know whatever. And it’s like when you try to do a write, you have to have some level of at least confidence in all of those. And also, even a little bit of content strategy on top of that because you have to be able to have someone who’s going to oversee that requirements from one aspect of this process moves smoothly into the next one and there aren’t gaps or miscommunications or screw-ups or whatever.

It’s a tricky job. I feel like it’s constantly evolving and rife with frustrations, especially when you’re coming from it from the creative side where they’re like… I say creative, but I guess I mean content or whatever the term is for the treatment that you create to test the hypothesis that you’re supposed to be generating, in the ideal case. But I feel like a lot of people don’t even think about it that way. They just think “Oh I want quote/unquote “higher conversions” therefore, I’m going to hire a conversion copywriter or expert and they’re just going to make that happen and there is no… we don’t have to actually put all the pieces together in terms of researching and testing and all that stuff to make it happen.”

It’s tricky. It’s a tricky job.

Rob: I think a lot of copywriters talk about how they do research and they look at your analytics, especially people, they call them conversion copywriters. But, Momo you take it to an extreme that I’ve never seen anybody else do, in a good way. You shared your process with us a few weeks ago, at least a glimpse at it. And the check sheet that you’ve got for starting an engagement. Will you talk a little bit about how analytics works into your process and what you do as your onboarding a client to make sure that everything is set up so that you can succeed with a project?

Momo: This is something that I’m actually transitioning more into now by phasing out projects or client inquiries where they are asking me about like “Can you just write this page or can you just optimize this page?”

So one of the big onboarding changes that I have made is, when someone asks me for a project, I don’t even really… or asks me to work on a project for them, and maybe they say it’s a homepage or a landing page or whatever, I just send a handful of questions back that I have set up that go straight to the analytics.

They go straight to what is the click-through rate? What is your conversion role? Oh maybe I could find the questions actually, that I have, but basically it’s just forcing them to verify to me that they actually understand what they’re asking for when they say “I want you to optimize this page.” Because if they don’t have their baseline analytics sorted out, and they don’t know like “Okay, this is the testing tool we’re using, this is the analytics tool that we’re using. Yes, they are integrated and they’re functioning properly. And our baseline is this. We would like to achieve this and so far, as we’ve been trying we’ve failed to do that and we think it might be because of this.”

Right? If they don’t have that thought process figured out yet, in my mind, they’re not ready to do what they want to have, which is the magical conversion optimization project. Because it’s such a hot term right now, right?

So, for me, I will say that and then a certain fraction of people with whom I answer back and I say “Okay, what’s your baseline conversion rate and conversion goal? How much traffic are you dealing with? Obviously because you… like to that page, because obviously we want to run tests. Then we need to make sure that you have enough traffic so that we have tests that are actually remotely conclusive.”

The big questions are traffic and baseline conversion rate. Do you know those things? That really opens the door, because then you will either have people that just ghost and they just don’t get back to you because it’s like not even a road that they… it’s like ahh that’s complicated. I thought you were just going to give me a higher conversion rate. Or you’ll get back a certain fraction of people who will come back to you and they are very literate in what they’re talking about. They just have a gap in their process. Which is someone who understands how to take research, or generate research and actually create a treatment that they can deploy with good writing and good layout and stuff like that.

So that’s the big onboarding difference that I have made, and the thing that I think that a lot of people would be uncomfortable with from a copywriter perspective, is the fact that you will lose leads. They’re shitty leads… sorry they’re crappy leads, but you’ll lose them. You have to be okay with that. You have to question whether or not, “do you want lots of clients or do you want good clients?” Right? Clients that you can have a professional back and forth where they’re upfront and transparent, and generous with the data and intel that they have so that you can do good work. That was the biggest difference for me.

Now, I’m starting to just focus primarily on one service offering that I have realized is something that I want to start out with for any engagement period, which is basically a conversion funnel audit. Where I look at their content of… they pick a funnel, which is basically visitors enter through here and we want them to get to this checkout point, and completed transaction point.

Right? That’s what we’re focusing on. You pick that funnel. You give me access to your Google analytics. Let me know which pages I’m supposed to navigate through. Then I’ll go through that and I will assess both of those things based on a report structure that I use to find out where the biggest problems spots are. And then generate a handful of simple tests that are designed to target those things.

Then they can take that and they can go and do it on their own if they want to, and if they screw it all up, that’s fine, but I am not on the hook for that. Or we can continue to work with each other and actually deploy it together and optimize together. So that’s the primary… 2017 is my focus is only doing that, because it’s really what you need to do, in my mind, to get started on the right foot.

Kira: So you mentioned the conundrum of having all these different specialties on one project, the analytics person, someone who’s testing, conversion copywriter, designer. So how do you handle this now? Because I feel like that’s the same… it stresses me out too, and do I need to find contractors to work with for the testing part and analytics part? I’m just getting into that now but that’s the direction I want to go and I’m just not sure how to-

Momo: Yeah, I think that, for me, I just learned the stuff because I’m a data geek, so I’ll just go in. A lot of the tests are not super overly complicated for the ones that I want to do. I think that probably getting someone who is… if that’s not your bag, then you’d probably just want to hire somebody to do it to get… but a lot of times, I feel like a lot of places, the trickiest thing I think, is a lot of places that will hire someone to generate conversion copy or whatever, they have a developer. They have someone who’s doing analytics.

So it’s mainly more about asserting that I need to be in contact with that person, at the start of the engagement. Just being like “We need to actually nail down what the goal is on this page.” I think one of the things that’s a huge… or I’ll redirect a client inquiry right away, is this idea that “can you optimize this quote/unquote page”. Because that’s not a thing. You want to optimize a funnel, right? And a funnel essentially breaks down into landing on a page and then clicking an element on that page to get to the next page. That’s the fundamental flow of any funnel. Right? To make money or generate a lead or whatever.

So, once you start redirecting the conversation to focus on that, then the client starts to realize, and then you have to be like “Okay, so now that we’re not talking about just a page and we’re talking about this funnel, let’s start talking about where are you losing people?”

And once you start opening that avenue of conversation, then the whole idea of getting the analytics person involved, getting someone else involved who can give you these answers, starts to make sense to the client. And that won’t happen with every client.

A lot of clients, they’re like “I know what I want. Don’t try to upsell me” or whatever. But that, I find, helps a lot with redirecting the whole process to focus on something that actually makes sense with the whole idea of conversion optimization. As opposed to this whole idea that I want higher lift. Rewrite this page and give me money, and generate more money for me.

That’s the technique that I use, but then again, if I was wanting to get really… these days I’m pretty okay with like I will go over the research. I will generate the treatments and I will give them guidelines for testing and how to deploy it and stuff like that. And they can take it and do it on their own. If they can work with me and I can oversee it. Right?

What I’ll do is I will say “Do you want a round of pre-test quality assurance? So you guys set up a test but you can pay me to come in and look it over to make sure there aren’t any mistakes before you deploy it.” Right? So they can do that, and that takes me off the hook for having to really dig in and get everything set up. The scope of the project tends to explode if you start digging into all the technical stuff, but at least having that ability to say “If you want, you can bring me in. I can look things over, make sure it’s okay to go before you set it off.” Right? Check off that checkpoint, I guess. And that works well.

Rob: Yeah, so, that’s a really interesting conundrum from a client standpoint, because if they don’t have that person on staff, and they want to hire you, how do you work that into a copy project? It’s one thing to say “Hey, I do landing pages for $2500 or $5000 or whatever. But yeah I’m going to do your landing page, but I’m also going to fix your analytics.” How do you price that into a project? What does that look like and what would you charge for something like that?

Momo: I don’t want to get into a situation where someone comes to me for a copywriting project and they want to get higher conversions and all that stuff. And all of a sudden, the scope of the project bloats out enormously because I’m going to do all this analytics stuff.

Generally what I will offer on my end… this is also because they usually have an analytics person of some kind. So generally what I will sell is either an analytics audit, which is like a grand. It’s basically just like I go through a checklist of things that I know and Google analytics should be set up properly. Things like clearing out referral spam and making sure that your testing tool is integrated properly and all these other things.

That’s for like a grand or they can opt for just a simple pre-test set-up quality assurance round, where I’ll go in once their test is ready, and I’ll take some time to just make sure that I don’t see any glaring mistakes. And if I do, then I will let them know.

But, I don’t necessarily offer my services as… I am really passionate about analytics and I like the data analysis stuff, but I also am not going to try to sell a client who comes to me for quote/unquote “creative” into an upsell of 50% on what they expected because there’s all this other technical execution that they need to account for. Right? That’s never going to work. They’ll just feel like your … they’ll just be like uhhh.

So, that’s what I’ll do. Because I have struggled with that in the past. I’m sure that probably a lot of copywriters who are trying to go down the road of conversion optimization have struggled with that also, is that people come to you to create a treatment. Right? That’s what they want to pay for, and if you offer also to do the testing, which I have done before, like being around to see through a testing round and then also optimize if it doesn’t perform or make tweaks based on the intel that you get. You can be on the hook for that client for weeks because the test has to run and then you have to come back and then you have to do this stuff. So that can be a huge engagement.

Generally speaking, I’ll give them the option to pay for me to come in to assess and check, and then they can go and they do their thing. And then if they want to… if they run that test and they’re like “okay cool” and they either get an improvement or they want to go in and run another test or whatever, they can come back and we can re-engage.

But, I don’t necessarily go and… because I’m only one person. Right? If I wanted to do a full conversion optimization agency style, you give us the problem and we take care of everything. Then I would probably be doing it with… I would have a partner in crime on the analytics side of things.

Rob: Yeah, it seems like there’s this black hole of “yeah, fix my analytics”. Like you said, that could be weeks long and if you’re only charging a thousand dollars for that, you’re hosed.

Momo: Yeah. I literally wanted to do analytics, audits, where I would fix all the problems also, as opposed to just finding the problems and saying “go fix them”. Depending on how complicated people’s analytics set-ups are, that can take a really long time. So that’s what I started with originally and I was like “this is ridiculous. I’m going to be working for $5 an hour if I do this.” You know what I mean?

Unless I wanted to specialize only in analytics, and you can’t really, you got to pick your battles on what is your primary specialization. And the reality is, with how much I enjoy tinkering with data and doing… I think it’s really interesting and I spend time improving my skills on it. At the end of the day, the thing that people will pay me really good money is write good copy. I’m not stupid.

I’m not going to be like “Well, you came to me to rewrite your website copy, but what I really like to do is data analysis. So I’m going to spend all my time doing that.” Because, like we all know, you can’t necessarily change a visitor’s motivation. If they come here for copy, they want copy. Right?

It is something where I think, like you said, I like the analysis and the data stuff more than your average bear, average copywriting bear. But it’s still peripheral to my central service offering, right? It can get so time intensive and laborious to fix a bunch of analytics, especially when people are really sensitive about their analytics too. It’s not easy to convince a company that probably already has at least a few developers to hand over the keys so that you can go in and start changing stuff up and tinkering with stuff. People will do it, but you have to establish trust and stuff like that.

I try to make sure that I offer the ability to pay for quality assurance and checkpoints in terms of how you execute on my recommendations, but I don’t necessarily try to sell me doing the whole thing. Because it’s just… I mean, maybe. That might be something I look to do in the future if I try to expand. I’ve been thinking about teaming up and offering more or whatever. But it’s something I constantly waffle with, because I like being one person and making a good living taking care of just the work that I need to do, and not expanding beyond the scope of a company of one. I don’t know. I think that’s something we all struggle with as copywriters.

Kira: We interrupt this interview for a very special announcement.

Rob: The copywriter club has our first sponsor. It’s Airstory. Before we get into what Airstory does for writers, we just wanted to share that this is actually a sponsorship we went after. We actually approached Airstory because we liked the tool so much and said “hey, would you guys like to sponsor the show?” We were thrilled when Joanna said yes, that they would like to.

Kira, you’ve played around a little bit with the tool. How would you use it as you create the sales pages that you work on?

Kira: Recently, I used it with a fellow copywriter, and we were working on a sales page together. It’s a great tool to use with team members, fellow collaborators. You’re able to piece the cards together with different sections of copy. Maybe you have a card for objections or for pain points, for key benefits, and you can piece it together and create a sales page in an easy to use environment, with a collaborator. It beats jumping into Google Docs. My Google Docs usually look like a disaster by the time I’m done with them, and I have a hard time keeping track of all the content I need. Airstory has been a great way to stay organized, which is a challenge for me at times.

Rob: Airstory has this beautiful interface. It works really well. It connects with Slack, and Evernote, Typeform, even Gmail. If you want to learn more about Airstory, go to airstory.co/club to join and start your first project.

Kira: Momo, I’m shifting gears a little bit, but in the intro we mentioned that you have these high-caliber clients like AT&T. Then you also are creating, you’re vetting potential clients. So you must have a lot of leads coming through, I would imagine. I’m just wondering where you’re finding these clients, your ideal clients, how they’re finding you. If you’re doing any type of marketing efforts to find them.

Momo: This is like my big hilarious, I don’t even know if it’s shame, it’s just weird. But to be completely honest, I do a pitiful amount of self-promotion. One of the things is that I do get leads who notice either based on stuff that I have talked about in public groups on Facebook, where they talk about conversion optimization. I think sometimes comments that I make are a little bit more data savvy than people expect, and that has generated interest.

People will be like “Oh she knows these weird subtleties about testing and that’s cool. And she also writes copy so maybe we can fill that void.” That helps, but … oh and I think that also helped establish a lot of trust between me and one of… or Joanna Wiebe has been referring clients to me for years. I think a big part of that is because she feels good that I understand the principles of writing good copy, but she also knows that I understand the data stuff. So she feels okay sending me a lot of leads.

And then I have a pretty good return rate on my clients. I have people come back. And I guess referrals. I really wish I could say that I do some calculated marketing promotional stuff that stabilizes my leads, but I am shamefully passive about it right now. I’m hoping to make that change in 2017, for sure. I want to simplify to just one key service offering and then just drive leads to that service offering, and have it systematized. But I am a marketing drifter. It’s just good things have happened and I’ve been happy about that but I definitely have not gone and taken charge and quote/unquote 10x-ed my leads or whatever, which apparently has become hugely popular these days.

Rob: One way that you’ve gotten your name out there, at least towards the end of 2016, is you did this course with Peep and ConversionXL. If I remember right, it was a four week course where you presenting live so it wasn’t pre-recorded.

Momo: Yeah.

Rob: Tell us a little bit about the process of developing that content and what it was like to actually do a live course. Because I’m imagining that a lot of people that would listen to this think “hey, I’d like to do a course someday. It doesn’t look that hard.” You know?

Momo: Yeah.

Rob: How did that go?

Momo: It actually went really well. I was terrified because I’m also kind of a big recluse. We live in the woods and I hang out with my cats and my husband all day. So, the idea of walking people through a process over four weeks was terrifying to me, when it was first proposed to me. But, I think that the tricky thing about it was that it was very fast from having the concept of it, saying yes to it, and then going forward with it.

I have my process that I do, so that wasn’t really an issue, because everyone has a process that they do for this kind of stuff. It was more about putting together slides and putting together talks that I felt were informative enough and organized enough and clear enough, within a very short period of time. Because we were literally doing two classes a week, and each class ended up being 90 minutes long.

Rob: Yeah, that’s a lot of content.

Momo: Yeah, it’s a lot of content. Admittedly, I think a fair amount of that was me… because it was live, it was half slides and half me doing the process in front of them. I’m sure that it got into the weeds a little bit sometimes. That was the tricky part, was putting together slides and a thought process, I guess, or a stream of consciousness that people would be able to follow quickly enough.

Peep asked me if I wanted to do it, and he just emailed out of the blue and was like “Hey, you want to teach a course?” And I was like “Okay, that sounds good.” And we were going to launch it and then start it within three weeks of him asking me to do it.

Kira: Oh wow.

Rob: Yeah.

Momo: Yeah, so it was real fast. It was super fast. But I also felt like it was something I could do, because the whole idea was exposing the nitty gritty process. It wasn’t about having this super polished, edited series of webinars. It was like if you’ve ever wanted to sit in and watch what a conversion copywriter actually does to get you the deliverable that you need, this is how it’s done. So that sets an agenda for the course.

It was really good. I would love to do another course, and I’m thinking about doing another one in 2017. And I think it would be really cool … I’d like to do a course that is pre-recorded, that is polished and is concise. That people could maybe just buy, just a video course, and they could just go through them and learn how this process is done, on their own. So that again, that’s something possibly for 2017. But it was a really good time.

I think one of the things that I didn’t realize when I started … it’s so funny because if you are a neurotic, anxious person, then the whole prospect of like “oh, do you want to teach a class?” Your immediate projection of how that’s going to go is you’re going to A) blank, not know you’re going to say and everybody is going to hate you. It’s so ridiculous. It’s such a ridiculous way of looking at it, but it is how I think a lot of us will look at it.

That’s why we all fear public speaking and stuff. Then you do it, and people are super nice. They come in, you’re like “hey guys” and everyone is on chat and they’re like “hey, good morning. How’s it going? Hello from France.” “Hi from Brazil”. It’s fun. Everyone is there to learn and have a good time. I would do it again. The only thing stopping me from doing it again, is again, my laziness.

Kira: Although I was going to ask you. I’m interested in creating a course of some kind, who knows what it will look like. What would you suggest to people that are thinking of creating a course, potentially a live one like yours? What would you do differently second time around?

Momo: Well, the second time around, I think I’m going to plan it. I would give myself more time to put it together. That was something that was just not something that we could adjust. Peep had a schedule and that was the way it was going to go. My course was going to be first and then someone else was going to do another course, so yeah, more prep time, I think, is important. I think the one thing that I would say that is the number one thing, it’s not something that I would do differently, but it’s something that I had never even thought of before I collaborated with Peep, is if you have a cool idea for a course, propose it to someone who has… put it together and make it awesome, but pitch it to people who have high-traffic engaged audiences.

If Peep had not asked me to do it, it would never have occurred to me to like, “oh I should just put together this awesome content and then make it available to him and you know, we can collaborate on it. And then everybody wins.” Right? I would have probably just made a course, and put it on my own website, which is woefully neglected, and then hope that somebody notices it. Right? I think that’s the biggest thing.

If you’re going to do a course, pitch it to somebody. Make sure it’s unique and that it’s something that they haven’t heard it before, but then pitch it to someone who has the traffic, I think.

Rob: Yeah, I think matching your knowledge and content to Peep’s list is just a recipe for great success.

Momo: Yeah, it worked out really well, and it was a gap in something that his particular audience, they were interested in. I think a lot of people are interested in product messaging and how to do it right, and how to do it in a research-based way. It was a super good compliment, and it worked out. I’m hopefully, fingers crossed 2017.

And then the other thing I think I would make sure to do for next time is probably make my classes a bit shorter. One of the things that I did not realize with the course, was that you get people asking you questions, and you want people to be asking questions, and being engaged in the course, right?

So it’s great when people start pinging you with questions in the chat, but that’s not good for people who are watching it later. Because then it becomes this extremely disjointed one-sided conversation that you are having with these people in chat. So there is a trade-off there, of like, the more engaged and spontaneous that you are with your live session recordings, good thing for the people who are there. But keep in mind that it’s being recorded and there are other people who were not there, who are going to want to be able to use that material later.

If you are going to try to do that model, you may want to make some time afterwards to edit the material so that people who are coming in later, they don’t necessarily have to sit around for all the back and forth. They can get the concise, need to know stuff, or you can transcribe it.

Rob: That’s a really good takeaway.

Momo: Yeah, I completely forgot that I was being recorded, so I was having these fun … I was having the time of my… I was like “Whoo, these guys are awesome and like, we’re having… like, this is great. Like everyone’s so engaged.” And then I realized afterwards, I was like “Oh, maybe they don’t want to hear me talking about…” I don’t know what I would have been talking about, but something very irreverent, and not necessarily a need to know for their exam. You know?

Rob: Yeah.

Momo: So, yeah.

Rob: Momo, I wish we had more time. We still got a bunch of questions we could ask about analytics and how you do that right, about your process, how you wire frame. We should definitely have you come back-

Momo: For sure.

Rob: And do another show with us. But until then, how would people find you if they wanted to connect with you?

Momo: They can find me either on Facebook, which I only recently started using again after not being online for a really long time. You can look me up, just Google me, Momoko Price, and then there’s either Facebook. You can just email me at momoko@kantan.io. That just goes to show you what a recluse I am. Normally, a normal person would just be like “Oh yeah, hit me up on Twitter. My name is like blah”. I’m like, “No, you can send me a letter through the post and then maybe I will get it.” You can email me…

Rob: You’re not the first copywriter we’ve talked to with that hide-away process, interestingly enough.

Momo: It’s brutal. 2017 man, I’m going to be out there. I’m going to blow…

Kira: We’ll interview you at the end of 2017 to see how out there you are.

Momo: Oh god. Oh no.

Kira: We’ll hold you accountable.

Momo: All right, man.

Kira: All right. Well thank you so much Momo.

Rob: Thanks Momo.

You’ve been listening to The Copywriter Club Podcast with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you’ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to our free Facebook community, visit thecopywriterclub.com. We’ll see you next episode.

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